“The Subcommittee on unidentified anomalous phenomena, or UAPs, will come to order.”
House Oversight UAP Hearing - July 26, 2023
- Date
- 26 Jul 2023
- Venue
- House Oversight Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs
- Language
- en
- Status
- Extracted
514
statements
21
speakers
15
entities mentioned
Speakers
21 speakers, A to ZAlexandria Ocasio-CortezVice Ranking Member8 statementsAndy BiggsRepresentative5 statementsAnna Paulina LunaU.S. Representative23 statementsCommander David FravorNavy Commander26 statementsCommander FravorNavy Commander20 statementsDavid FravorNavy Commander3 statementsDavid GruschFormer U.S. Space Force Officer104 statementsEric BurlisonU.S. Congressman12 statementsGarciaRepresentative40 statementsGlenn GrothmanU.S. Congressman17 statementsJamie RaskinRepresentative22 statementsJared MoskowitzRepresentative29 statementsMatt GaetzRepresentative16 statementsMr. GarciaRepresentative14 statementsMr. GravesFormer Navy Pilot3 statementsMr. GrothmanU.S. Congressman12 statementsMr. GruschFormer U.S. Space Force Officer8 statementsNancy Mace9 statementsRyan GravesFormer Navy Pilot88 statementsTim BurchettRepresentative53 statementsVirginia FoxxRepresentative2 statements
Transcript
514 statements, in transcript orderEach entry is one claim, quoted word for word. These are extracted statements, not the full record: the original document has everything.
- 001
- 002
“I would like to thank the brave military panelists and personnel, such as the witnesses on the panel today, for sharing their stories on how they have engaged UAPs, which has brought attention to this matter.”
- 003
“when I was younger in school I read a book—a 1966 book called ''Flying Saucers Serious Business'' and for a while when I was a little bit younger, I thought it was the most important issue out there.”
- 004
“The lack of transparency regarding UAPs has fueled wild speculation and debate for decades, eroding public trust in the very institutions that are meant to serve and protect them”
- 005
“in 1966, President Gerald Ford claimed to have seen a UFO, and in 1969 in Georgia, Jimmy Carter claimed to have seen a UFO”
- 006
“The National Defense Authorization Act of 2022 established the all-domain anomaly resolution officer—AARO—to conduct or to coordinate efforts across the Department of Defense and other Federal agents to detect, identify, and investigate UAPs.”
- 007
“AARO's budget remains classified, prohibiting meaningful oversight from Congress.”
- 008
“NASA is leading an independent study on UAPs to identify how UAP data is gathered from both civilian and government entities that can be analyzed to shed light on the topic.”
- 009
“The Biden Administration's handling of the Chinese spy balloon that violated U.S. air space is one example how the government is not prepared for these.”
- 010
“Between the Chinese balloon being shot down and two UAPs subsequently shot down following the event earlier this year the U.S. Government spent $1.5 million in taxpayer dollars on missiles.”
- 011
“Yet, we have seen little clarity from the Biden Administration.”
- 012
“We must demand transparency from the Department of Defense, our intelligence community, and our defense industry on the UAP work.”
- 013
“Congress recognizes the subject of UAPs is multifaceted and requires a careful data-driven approach.”
- 014
“Today, we are not just debating the existence of UAPs. We are deliberating on the principles that define our republic, which is a commitment to transparency and accountability.”
- 015
“I want to remind everybody this is a nonpartisan issue. This has nothing to do with party politics. I think the cover up goes a lot deeper than that.”
- 016
“if it had not been for Matt Gaetz, myself, him, and Luna would still be down at Eglin Air Force Base trying to get some answers.”
- 017
“I also would like to enter in—I understand now that this is unclassified, and it is public record but as we all know that is sometimes difficult for the public to get a hold of—a report, defense intelligence reference documents, ''Advanced Space Propulsion Based on Vacuum (spacetime metric) Engineering,''”
- 018
“Mr. Knapp wrote since 1969, the position of our military has been that UFOs posed no threat to national security and are not worthy of further study.”
- 019
“I would say that is the biggest understatement of the decade.”
- 020
“He also goes on to talk about the dismissive attitude is at odds with what was revealed in documents, reports, and internal memos.”
- 021
“Mr. Corbell says as he writes these words, the UFO is emerging as a major topic of global importance.”
- 022
“I can state that as a fact out there. I met a fellow who came in here all the way from Denmark to be here for this meeting. So, this is huge. This is worldwide.”
- 023
“I think we suspect what is going on.”
- 024
“Some have even confided in me that they have had UFO sightings of their own. Those Members, of course, some of them wish to remain anonymous and I will keep it that way.”
- 025
“I would like to thank these three brave witnesses here. They took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and daggum it they are doing it and we owe them a debt of gratitude.”
- 026
“These folks, they have got nothing to gain from this and I think you are going to find out that they have endured quite a few slings and arrows.”
- 027
“They have done interviews and appeared in documentaries like ''Accidental Truth'' to get their stories out there and now they are all here to testify under oath for Congress. It has been so difficult to get here today.”
- 028
“I have said, you know, in the Baptist Church we would say that the devil is in our way and the devil has been in our way through this thing. We have run into roadblocks from Members, from the intelligence community, the Pentagon.”
- 029
“I proposed legislation to go in the FAA reauthorization that just said if an airline pilot has a sighting that when he makes that report to the FAA that it would come to Congress. But I was told that the intelligence community did not like that, and the bill was—the amendment was not even heard in committee.”
- 030
“I think it is time for this country to take back our country. We need to tell the folks at the Pentagon they work for us, daggum it. We do not work for them and that is exactly the point. This is an issue of government transparency.”
- 031
“We cannot trust a government that does not trust its people.”
- 032
“We are not bringing little green men or flying saucers into the hearing. Sorry to disappoint about half of you all. We are just going to get to the facts. We are going to uncover the cover up and I hope this is just the beginning of many more hearings and more people coming forward about this.”
- 033
“The circumstances surrounding UAPs has captivated the attention of the American people for decades, ingrained in even the minds of our Nation's leaders from Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump, Marco Rubio to Chuck Schumer, John Ratcliffe to National Security Council officials.”
- 034
“Yet, from Roswell, New Mexico to the coast of Jacksonville, Florida, the sightings of UAPs have rarely been explained by the people who have firsthand accounts of these situations.”
- 035
“This is largely due to the lack of transparency by our own government and the failure of our elected leaders to make good on their promises to release explanations and footage and mountains of over-classified documents that continue to be hidden from the American people.”
- 036
“This is not just how I feel. In fact, the American people largely believe that the government has actively covered up the truth about UAPs.”
- 037
“One poll, in particular, found that 68 percent of Americans believe that the government is hiding information about UAPs and not being honest about what we know about them and from my personal experience I believe the same thing.”
- 038
“Another poll found that nearly half of Americans believe that the Federal Government is doing a very bad or somewhat bad job of dealing with reports of UFO sightings.”
- 039
“Considering the thousands of testimoneys and videos taken on people's phones and eyewitnesses' accounts made by credible witnesses such as doctors, pilots, scientists, and active-duty service members, it is unacceptable to continue to gaslight Americans into thinking that this is not happening or that the potential of intelligent life forms exist other than humans.”
- 040
“Even more alarming is the fact that these eyewitnesses are, many times, service members and have no assurance that their lives will not be negatively impacted or even harmed by their experiences.”
- 041
“In being an active-duty service member working on an airfield, I have had conversations with many pilots where they were in fear of coming forward for retribution and/or being taken off flight status.”
- 042
“How do we know this? Because the government has said nothing to assure us otherwise. They have also done nothing to calm the concerns of over 20 percent of Americans who have reported to have seen UFOs or UAPs.”
- 043
“We are simply told not to question the government and that the government has it under control.”
- 044
“Today is the first hearing of its kind where we will attempt to get down to the bottom of what is actually happening with UAPs. But we will hear from people who have had personal sightings rather than Pentagon bureaucrats who have always been sent to stonewall our investigations.”
- 045
“Just so that the press knows, and the people know, we were even denied access to a classified briefing in a SCIF prior to this hearing due to the amount of hoops that we had to jump through to grant temporary clearance to witness Grusch, who has knowledge of classified information.”
- 046
“It is time to have an open-minded discussion on this topic, to hear the evidence and understand the magnitude of what this means not just for our Nation but for humanity.”
- 047
“Our witnesses will testify today that UAPs have posed a serious safety threat and we must understand this.”
- 048
“Now, some of the earliest reporting on this issue was a groundbreaking 2017 New York Times report which revealed research as we know now on unidentified anomalous phenomena or as many call UFOs by the Defense Intelligence Agency.”
- 049
“Mr. Graves and Commander Fravor's experiences with UAPs have also been documented by the public, not just by the New York Times but CNN and many other national news outlets.”
- 050
“Now, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has published public reports documenting UAPs and on June 9, 2022, NASA announced that the agency is commissioning a study to, of course, examine unidentified anomalous phenomena.”
- 051
“Now, the sheer number of reports, whistleblowers, and stories of unidentified anomalous phenomena should raise real questions and warrant investigation and oversight and that is why we are here today.”
- 052
“Now, pilots have reported encounters for years and because of the stigma around reporting these incidents we still do not have a complete picture of actually what is going on, particularly, as your witnesses will testify, on the civilian side and that is a real problem that we have today in the country.”
- 053
“Now, I understand fully the Department of Defense is hesitant to share information that could also undermine our national security by revealing information on the capabilities of our own aircraft, our sensors, and other sensitive material.”
- 054
“At the same time, many people believe that we are withholding information from them and that is dangerous also.”
- 055
“Now, we have incidents when sensors, sometimes even multiple types of sensors, detect things that we cannot explain.”
- 056
“UAPs, whatever they may be, may pose a serious threat to our military or civilian aircraft and that must be understood.”
- 057
“I also want to note that Mr. Sean Kirkpatrick, Director of the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, the component of the DoD office that investigates UAP data, has testified before the Senate this year that his unit has found no evidence of extraterrestrial activity.”
- 058
“NASA has also stated they do not have evidence of extraterrestrial life either and we have heard this, of course, from some of our government agencies.”
- 059
“And we should remind viewers and witnesses, which I think is really important, that we also cannot share classified information in public settings.”
- 060
“I hear over and over from many agencies the stigma around reporting and investigating UAPs prevents us from getting real answers.”
- 061
“We know that whistleblowers have reported harassment, intimidation, or stigma as well and this is not acceptable.”
- 062
“If people cannot report incidents which would have national security or safety implications, then that also has serious consequences for us.”
- 063
“We know the Senate is taking up an amendment to their defense authorization bill which will create a commission with broad declassification authority, and we should all agree that that is an important step.”
- 064
“We should encourage more reporting, not less, on UAPs. The more that we understand, the safer we will be.”
- 065
“I also just want to say, more broadly, that we should look at this hearing and believe that everything is on the table as it relates to UAPs.”
- 066
“My career and training as a longtime and career educator and teacher and researcher tell me that we should never rule any thing out. We know that our space, of course, is vast and undiscovered.”
- 067
“But questions, of course, remain that people want to see data and information for themselves.”
- 068
“I believe in openness and transparency. That is also the role of Congress, and I want to trust that the American people will be able to weigh the evidence and make up their own minds.”
- 069
“As Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, I know my job would be completely impossible if whistleblowers or others feel intimidated to come before this Committee. We cannot be afraid of asking questions and we cannot be afraid of the truth.”
- 070
“I am proud to say that this hearing builds upon bipartisan work by Members of the House and Senate dating many years back which is sought to increase awareness within the Department of Defense and more—and to mandate more of Congress of UAPs.”
- 071
“Members of both parties and senior officials in multiple administrations have taken an interest in this issue and we are proud to carry and build that confidence in the American people.”
- 072
“This hearing will also not be the end of the discussion but a new chapter and start to years and years of work that many folks both in the public and within government have been working on.”
- 073
“I want to thank first our witnesses for joining us today. I want to begin by thanking you all for your service to our country and for sharing your voices today and your courage to be here as well.”
- 074
“To Mr. Graves, I am particularly grateful to you to spend some time that we had for you to share with candor some of your experiences. So, I appreciate that as well.”
- 075
“I do want to thank all the Members of our Subcommittee today and also those that are here and have waived on for their incredible interest in this issue, particularly to Congressman Burchett. I know that your leadership has brought us to this place today and I want to thank him for that as well as everyone else that has been engaged in this work.”
- 076
“It is really important that we are here in a bipartisan way to have this conversation which really to the heart of it is about national security and key to the Subcommittee's core purpose.”
- 077
“Faith in our institutions, as we all know, is at an all-time low. Partisanship and alternative facts make it too easy to doubt narrative or our institutions.”
- 078
“But this hearing will offer the public unique perspectives, building on years of reporting by both Federal agencies and the independent media.”
- 079
“Now, it is very important that we show that Democrats and Republicans in Congress can come together in a bipartisan way to cut through misinformation and to look at the facts in a serious and thoughtful manner.”
- 080
“If we are to advance oversight and public disclosure, we must also gain the broad support of the public. We will succeed getting facts out to the public faster if there is a broad public support as part of the process.”
- 081
“The enormous interest in the hearing today underscores the importance of a fair and open look at the evidence from witnesses who can share their unique perspectives.”
- 082
“Now, I know I certainly have a lot of questions. I know that all the Members of our Committee do as well. We should come to this hearing with an open mind, and we should not let our existing ideas restrict us on either side.”
- 083
“We cannot be afraid of asking questions and we cannot be afraid of the truth.”
- 084
“I encourage all of my colleagues to engage with these difficult questions with an open mind and to follow the facts on behalf of our country.”
- 085
“I think an open mind is absolutely the best.”
- 086
“I want to thank Tim Burchett and Anna Paulina Luna for their leadership in pushing this hearing forward.”
- 087
“it should not take the potential of nonhuman origin to bring us together”
- 088
“Unlike other hearings many times in Congress you are not here to help a political party, but you are here to share information with the American people, and it is not something that is just going on in this Administration. It is something that has spanned many administrations.”
- 089
“For decades many Americans have been fascinated by objects mysterious and unexplained and it is long past time that they got some answers.”
- 090
“The American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, nonhuman intelligence, and unexplainable phenomena. Those are not the words of a UFO Twitter account. That is a direct quote from Majority Leader Chuck Schumer”
- 091
“In an interview with Fox News, recent former Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe confirmed the U.S. Government is aware a lot more sightings of UAPs and that they have not made that information public. I quote, 'There are a lot more sightings that have not been made public,' Ratcliffe said to Fox News.”
- 092
“For me, this hearing is about transparency. We, unfortunately, live in a time in which many people distrust government and our institutions and over classification of information away from the American public or even Congress contributes to today's politics.”
- 093
“The American people have regular questions. What are UAPs? How come the media does not report more on them? Are they foreign adversaries? Are they U.S. technology? Are they something else?”
- 094
“They ask themselves how come when a Russian jet shoots flares at one of our drones—we have perfect pictures and videos to show the American people and the world—but when it comes to UAPs nothing.”
- 095
“Of course, we must always protect our national security to maintain our superiority like when stealth helicopters were only rumored to exist but were used in the Osama bin Laden raid in 2011. But we cannot allow that to be used as a shield to keep the American people completely in the dark from basic truths.”
- 096
“The American people deserve to hear more about special access programs.”
- 097
“Congress has a right to know if there is any unsanctioned weapons development satellite imagery that has not been provided to Congress.”
- 098
“Congress created the All-Domain Resolution Office in the NDAA of 2022. In its initial analysis there are 171 uncharacterized UAP reports—and this is the words from the report—that appear to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities.”
- 099
“I believe more information is known about the 171 instances.”
- 100
“It is time for Congress to reinsert ourselves. I call on our military leaders and intelligence officials to release more information to the American people about UAPs. And to our military leaders, if there is nothing to conceal let Congress go to Wright Patterson Air Force Base, the Doug Wright Proving Ground, or even Groom Lake in Nevada.”
- 101
“We should have disclosure today. We should have disclosure tomorrow. The time has come.”
- 102
“Our first witness is Lieutenant Ryan Graves. He is the Executive Director of Americans for Safe Aerospace. Lieutenant Graves is also a former U.S. Navy F–18 pilot with his own UAP experience.”
- 103
“The next witness, David Grusch, is a former senior intelligence officer with the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and was a senior technical advisor for UAP issues.”
- 104
“And, finally, retired Navy Commander David Fravor, squadron leader who worked as a naval aviator for 18 years. Mr. Fravor has his own UAP experience known as the Tic Tac event.”
- 105
“My name is Ryan "FOBS" Graves and I am a former F–18 pilot with a decade of service in the U.S. Navy including two deployments in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Inherent Resolve.”
- 106
“I have experienced advanced UAP firsthand and I am here to voice the concerns of more than 30 commercial aircrew and military veterans who have confided their similar encounters with me.”
- 107
“As we convene here, UAP are in our airspace but they are grossly under reported. These sightings are not rare or isolated. They are routine.”
- 108
“Military aircrew and commercial pilots, trained observers whose lives depend on accurate identification, are frequently witnessing these phenomena.”
- 109
“The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and challenges national security. It silences commercial pilots who fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses, and is only compounded by recent government claims questioning the credibility of eyewitness testimony.”
- 110
“Parts of our government are aware more about UAP than they let on, but excessive classification practices keep crucial information hidden.”
- 111
“Since 2021 all UAP videos are classified as secret or above. This level of secrecy not only impedes our understanding but fuels speculation and mistrust.”
- 112
“In 2014, I was an F–18 Foxtrot pilot in the Navy Fighter Attack Squadron 11, the Red Rippers, and I was stationed at NAS Oceana in Virginia Beach.”
- 113
“After upgrades were made to our jet's radar systems, we began detecting unknown objects operating in our airspace.”
- 114
“At first, we assumed they were radar errors but soon we began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard sensors, including infrared systems, eventually through visual ID.”
- 115
“During a training mission in Warning Area W–72, 10 miles off the coast of Virginia Beach, two F–18 Super Hornets were split by a UAP.”
- 116
“The object, described as a dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere, came within 50 feet of the lead aircraft and was estimated to be five to 15 feet in diameter.”
- 117
“The mission commander terminated the flight immediately and returned to base.”
- 118
“Our squadron submitted a safety report but there was no official acknowledgement of the incident and no further mechanism to report the sightings.”
- 119
“Soon these encounters became so frequent that aircrew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular preflight briefs.”
- 120
“Recognizing the need for action and answers, I founded Americans for Safe Aerospace.”
- 121
“The organization has since become a haven for UAP witnesses who were previously unspoken due to the absence of a safe intake process.”
- 122
“More than thirty witnesses have come forward and almost 5,000 Americans have joined us in the fight for transparency at safeaerospace.org.”
- 123
“The majority of witnesses are commercial pilots at major airlines. Often, they are veterans with decades of flying experience.”
- 124
“Pilots are reporting UAP at altitudes that appear above them at 40,000 feet, potentially in low Earth orbit or in the gray zone below the common line, making unexplainable maneuvers like right hand turns and retrograde orbits, or J hooks.”
- 125
“Sometimes these reports are reoccurring with numerous recent sightings north of Hawaii and in the North Atlantic.”
- 126
“Other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP encounters in our airspace and oceans.”
- 127
“The most compelling involve observations of UAP by multiple witnesses and sensor systems.”
- 128
“I believe these accounts are only scratching the surface and more will share their experiences once it is safe to do so.”
- 129
“In closing, I recognize the skepticism surrounding this topic. If everyone could see the sensor and video data I witnessed, our national conversation would change.”
- 130
“I urge us to put aside stigma and address the security and safety issue this topic represents.”
- 131
“If UAP are foreign drones, is an urgent national security problem. If it is something else, it is an issue for science. In either case, unidentified objects are a concern for flight safety.”
- 132
“The American people deserve to know what is happening in our skies. It is long overdue.”
- 133
“My name is David Charles Grusch. I was an intelligence officer for 14 years both in the U.S. Air Force, both active-duty Air National Guard and Reserve at the rank of Major and most recently from 2021 to 2025—excuse me, 2023—at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, NGA, at the GS–15 civilian level, which is the military equivalent of a full bird colonel.”
- 134
“I was my agency's co-lead in unidentified anomalous phenomena and trans medium object analysis as well as reporting to the UAP Task Force—UAPTF—and eventually, once it was established, the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office—AARO.”
- 135
“I became a whistleblower through a PPD–19 urgent concern filing in May 2022 with the intelligence community inspector general following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and intelligence community individuals that the U.S. Government is operating with secrecy above congressional oversight with regards to UAPs.”
- 136
“My testimony is based on information I have been given by individuals with a long-standing track record of legitimacy and service to this country, many of whom also have shared compelling evidence in the form of photography, official documentation, and classified oral testimony to myself and many of my various colleagues.”
- 137
“I have taken every step I can to corroborate this evidence over a period of 4 years while I was with the UAP Task Force and do my due diligence on the individuals sharing it.”
- 138
“In the U.S. Air Force in my National Reconnaissance Office—NRO—reservist capacity, I was a member of the UAP Task Force from 2019 to 2021.”
- 139
“I served at the NRO operations center on the Director's briefing staff, which included the coordination of the Presidential daily brief and supporting a variety of contingency operations, which I was the reserve intelligence division chief backup.”
- 140
“In 2019, the UAP Task Force Director asked me to identify all special access programs and controlled access programs, also known as SAPs and CAPs, we needed to satisfy our congressionally mandated mission and we would direct report at the time to the DEP/SecDef.”
- 141
“At the time, due to my extensive executive level intelligence support duties I was cleared to literally all relevant compartments and in a position of extreme trust both in my military and civilian capacities.”
- 142
“I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program to which I was denied access to those additional read-ons when I requested it.”
- 143
“I made the decision based on the data I collected to report this information to my superiors and multiple inspectors general and, in effect, becoming a whistleblower.”
- 144
“As you know, I have suffered retaliation for my decision, but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of increased transparency.”
- 145
“But as I stand here under oath now, I am speaking to the facts as I have been told them.”
- 146
“I am driven by a commitment of both to truth and transparency, rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people. I am asking Congress to hold our government to this standard and thoroughly investigate these claims.”
- 147
“Right now, we need a system where pilots can report without fear of losing their jobs. There is a fear that the stigma associated with this topic is going to lead to professional repercussions either through management or perhaps through their yearly physical check.”
- 148
“Well, I do not think there has been a proper reporting system to gather those reports and thus not report them. So, to answer your question, I think there is a dearth of data due to the fact that the reporting has been limited up to this time.”
- 149
“There is certainly some national security concerns when we use our advanced sensors in our tactical jets to be able to identify these objects. However, there is no reason that the objects themselves would be classified. I would be curious to see how the security classification guideline actually spells out the different nuances of how this topic is classified from the perspective of UAP, not national security.”
- 150
“I think one of it is acknowledging a vulnerability both from a collection and I will just say, you know, a countermeasure perspective. So, it is a nut we have not cracked for many years.”
- 151
“Unless it shows a specific national security vulnerability as it relates to a weakness in a particular defense system.”
- 152
“None. We had a standard debrief where the backseaters went down to our carrier intel center and briefed would have happened and that was it. No one else talked to us and I was in the top 20 in the battle group. No one came. That captain was aware. The admiral was aware. Nothing was done.”
- 153
“Yes, it was.”
- 154
“Yes, and here is why. The technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had, and you could put that anywhere. If you had one, you captured one, you reverse engineered it, you got it to work, you are talking something that can go into space, go someplace, drop down in a matter of seconds, do whatever it wants, and leave and there is nothing we can do about it. Nothing.”
- 155
“I would also like to add from a commercial aviation and military aviation perspective, we deal with uncertainty in our operating space as a matter of our professional actions. Identifying friend from foe is very important to us, and so when we have unidentified targets, and we continue to ignore those due to a stigma or fear of what it could be that is an opening that our adversaries can take advantage of.”
- 156
“There needs to be a location where this information is centralized for processing and there needs to be a two-way communication loop so the operators on the front end have a feedback and can get best practices on how to process information, what to do, and to ensure that their reporting is being listened to. Right now, there is not a lot of back and forth.”
- 157
“Yes, I can speak to that very briefly in an unclassified manner. As you know, the preponderance of my complaint was classified to the intelligence communities. Both material acquisition and exploitation activity, also baselining the UAPs but not sharing it with, you know, intelligence professionals that are actually doing step briefs to pilots, that kind of information.”
- 158
“Certainly. I will break that down in two ways. First, when we were first experiencing these objects off the Eastern Seaboard in the 2014 to 2015 time period, anyone that had upgraded their radar systems were seeing these objects. So, there was a large number of my colleagues that were detecting these objects off the Eastern Seaboard. They were further correlating that information with their other onboard sensors and many of them also had their own eye sightings as well of these objects.”
- 159
“Now, that was our personal firsthand experience at the time. Since then, as I have engaged this topic, others have reached out to me to share their experiences both on the military side as well as a commercial aviation side. On the military aviation side, veterans that have recently got out have shared their stories and have expressed how the objects we were seeing in 2014 and 2015 continued all the way to 2019, 2020, and beyond. And so, it became a generational issue for naval aviators on the Eastern Seaboard.”
- 160
“having somewhat similar experiences as our military brothers and sisters”
- 161
“The military and Department of Defense has stated that UAP represent a critical aviation safety risk. We have not seen that same language being used in the commercial markets. They are not acknowledging this risk.”
- 162
“having a secure system, reducing the stigma, and making this information available through the public is going to reduce the concerns that aircrew have.”
- 163
“Could you tell me why you believe it is—kind of to play the devil's advocate, a reason why some of this stuff should not be available to the public?”
- 164
“Assuming that there are reasons why not all it should be made public, this has been around for a long period of time. Can you think of—can any of the three of you think of any reason why anything related to UAPs, say, 15 years and back should not be immediately made public?”
- 165
“OK. Mr. Fravor, the Tic Tac incident that you were engaged occurred in 2004. What kind of reporting took place after that incident?”
- 166
“Did your commanding officers provide any sort of justification?”
- 167
“Was this incident the only UAP event that you encountered while you were a pilot?”
- 168
“OK. This is for any one of you. Based on—based off of each of your experiences and observations do you believe UAPs pose a potential threat to our national security?”
- 169
“OK. Each of you?”
- 170
“What steps should be taken to better understand and respond to UAP encounters in the interest of national security?”
- 171
“Mr. Grusch, in your complaint to the intelligence community Inspector General, you claim that you believe information is being hidden. What kind of information do you think was hidden and do you think it should remain hidden?”
- 172
“Thank you. Again, thank you all for your service and for testifying today. I want to just talk about UAPs as it relates to what we are seeing and pilots' interaction with UAPs. Particularly, Mr. Graves, one of the, I think, concerns from Members of this Committee is this idea that pilots—there is no system to actually report UAPs and the stigma around pilots.”
- 173
“And so can you just briefly—you mentioned that you are working with 30 pilots right now that have had encounters with UAPs. But you have also, I believe, discussed and know of many more pilots. This is just those that you are currently working with. Is that correct? Can you expand on that?”
- 174
“Certainly. I will break that down in two ways. First, when we were first experiencing these objects off the Eastern Seaboard in the 2014 to 2015 time period, anyone that had upgraded their radar systems were seeing these objects. So, there was a large number of my colleagues that were detecting these objects off the Eastern Seaboard.”
- 175
“This was something we are briefing to new students. This is something that was included in the notice to airmen to ensure that there was no accidents, and now with commercial aviators, they are reaching out because they are having somewhat similar experiences as our military brothers and sisters, but they do not have any reporting system that they can send this to.”
- 176
“I think it is actually—it is a travesty that we do not have a system to correlate this and actually investigate. You know, so if you took the East Coast, you know, there is coastal radars out there that monitor our air defense identification zone so out there 200 miles. They can track these, you know, so when you see them they could actually go and pull that data and get maneuvering.”
- 177
“So, you need a centrally located repository that these reports go to. So, if you just stuck it in DoD, you would not get anything out of the Intelligence Committee because they have a tendency not to talk. But if you have got a central location where these reports are coming in, not just military but also commercial aviation because there is a lot of that going on, especially if you talk to anyone that flies from here to Hawaii over the Pacific, they see odd lights.”
- 178
“I will concur with everything Mr. Fravor said. I will continue to say that the commercial pilots that have reached out to me through Americans for Safe Aerospace are doing so because they do not feel there is another way for them to report this safety issue.”
- 179
“I think we are doing it right now. I think this hearing is going to show the American people that their government takes this topic seriously.”
- 180
“My recommendations would be to make that a sensor centric operation in order to make it as objective as possible.”
- 181
“Yes. The objects that are being seen by commercial pilots are performing maneuvers that are unexplainable due to our current understanding of our technology and our capabilities as a country, and that applies for the military as well.”
- 182
“Yes, I concur with that. We have nothing that can stop in midair and go the other direction nor do we have anything that can, like in our situation, come down from space, hang out for 3 hours and go back up.”
- 183
“Absolutely, based on interviewing over 40 witnesses over 4 years.”
- 184
“I know the exact locations and those locations were provided to the Inspector General and some of which to the intelligence committees. I actually had the people with the firsthand knowledge provide a protected disclosure to the Inspector General.”
- 185
“Some of the behaviors that we saw in our working area, we would see these objects being at 0.0 Mach—that is zero airspeed—over certain pieces of the ground. So, what that means just like a river if you throw a bobber in it is going to float downstream. These objects were staying completely stationary in category four hurricane winds. These same objects would then accelerate to supersonic speeds—1.1, 1.2 Mach—and they would do so in very erratic and quick behaviors that we do not—I do not have an explanation for.”
- 186
“Have you spoken to commercial and military pilots that have seen these off of our East Coast?”
- 187
“I have.”
- 188
“One of the things that I found fascinating in our discussion, Mr. Graves, last night as well is that you both described UAPs and formations and the way they are observed in space or in our air and the way that they move, essentially, ways in which current technology of our aircraft that we know of are unable to actually function or move.”
- 189
“Mr. Fravor, what astonished you the most about the flight capabilities of these Tic Tac, very briefly?”
- 190
“The performance. Absolute performance. It was——”
- 191
“And you are not aware of any other objects that anybody in the world has in this world that has those capabilities?”
- 192
“No. I think it is far beyond, actually, our material science that we currently possess.”
- 193
“Are you aware of any other reconnaissance platforms have tracked or recorded the Tic Tac's maneuvers, maybe the NORAD system or any of the others?”
- 194
“I am not.”
- 195
“Mr. Grusch, thank you for being here, brother, and thank you all very much. Have you faced any retaliation or reprisals for any of your testimony or anything on these lines?”
- 196
“Yes. I have to be careful what I say in detail because there is an open whistleblower reprisal investigation on my behalf, and I do not want to compromise that investigation by providing anything that may help provide somebody information. But it was very brutal and very unfortunate. Some of the tactics they used to hurt me both professionally and personally, to be quite frank. Yes.”
- 197
“It is very unfortunate. As they say, when you are over the target that is when they do the most firing at you. Do you have any personal knowledge of people who have been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology?”
- 198
“Yes, personally.”
- 199
“Have you heard—have anyone been murdered that you would—that you know of or have heard of, I guess?”
- 200
“I have to be careful asking that question. I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities.”
- 201
“Maybe in a—if we could get in a confidential area, a SCIF, we could talk about that. But unfortunately, we were denied access to the SCIF and that is very unfortunate in this scenario.”
- 202
“Mr. Fravor, do you believe that you witnessed an additional object under the water in relation to your encounter?”
- 203
“I will say we did not see an object. There was something there to cause the whitewater and when we turned around it was gone. So, there was something there that obviously moved.”
- 204
“OK. It was not the same object, though, that you were looking at, correct?”
- 205
“No. We actually joked that the Tic Tac was communicating with something when we came back and—because the whitewater disappeared.”
- 206
“We were—in another instance—were told about the capabilities of a jamming during viewing of some—when there were some people chasing some of these objects. Did you experience any of that jamming or interrupting your radar or weapons system?”
- 207
“My crew that launched after we landed experienced significant jamming to the APG–73 radar, which was what we had on board, which is a mechanically scan very high-end system prior to the APG–79 and, yes, it did pretty much everything you could do—range, velocity, aspect—and then it split the lock, then the targeting pod is passive. That is what we were able to get the video on.”
- 208
“I am about to run out of time. But are you aware of any of our enemies that have that capability?”
- 209
“OK. I would also like to note for the record that, like George Knapp, Breaking Area 51, he is the reason I knew about that, and the reason I know about the Tic Tacs is because Leslie Keane from a New York Times article and I would encourage everybody to read that.”
- 210
“Mr. Graves, you reported UAP encounters during training flights, I think, and have since come forward to warn the Pentagon that these encounters may be putting pilots at risk. My first question is, you have identified these as taking place on the East Coast—is it just on the East Coast where these encounters have been reported?”
- 211
“No. Since the events initially occurred, I have learned that the objects have been detected, essentially, where all operations—our Navy operations are being conducted across the world and that is from the All-Domain Anomaly Resolutions Office reporting.”
- 212
“Can you describe your experience after you decided to come forward and go public with your experience?”
- 213
“Certainly. Like many others in 2017, I saw the New York Times article come out as well and for me it was special because I recognized the voices on the video. I recognize the video itself. I had seen it when it was taken. I had seen it when it was debriefed.”
- 214
“And so that was—kind of shook me because I realized that this problem was still ongoing and so I reached out to colleagues back on the East Coast and realized that this was still a safety risk that they were dealing with, that they had essentially hit a wall with how they could move forward on this conversation. It was at that point when I decided to try to move the conversation forward my-self.”
- 215
“Are there common characteristics to the UAPs that have been cited by different pilots and can you describe what the convergence of descriptions is?”
- 216
“Certainly. We were primarily seeing dark gray or black cubes inside of a clear sphere.”
- 217
“I am sorry. Dark gray or black cubes?”
- 218
“Yes, inside of a clear sphere where the apex or tips of the cube were touching the inside of that sphere, and that was primarily what was being reported when we were able to gain a visual tally of these objects. That occurred over almost 8 years and as far as I know is still occurring.”
- 219
“So, I take it that you are arguing what we need is real transparency and a reporting system so we can get some clarity on what is going on out there because there are many pilots in your situation. But we should have a way of developing a systematic inventory of all of such encounters. Is that right?”
- 220
“Yes, and I think we need both transparency and the reporting. We have the reporting, but we need to make sure that information can be promulgated to commercial aviation as well as the rest of the populace.”
- 221
“Mr. Grusch, what about you? What was your experience after you came forward?”
- 222
“Well, it has only been about 2 months or so. So, I guess my experience has been overwhelming support from former colleagues of mine that have, you know, privately messaged me and I do appreciate that. But I do have knowledge of active planned reprisal activity against myself, and other colleagues and it is very, very upsetting to me.”
- 223
“Coming from where?”
- 224
“Certain senior leadership at previous agencies I was associated with and that is all I will say publicly. But I can provide more details in a closed environment.”
- 225
“OK. Well, I hope you understand that there would be bipartisan rejection of any attempt to vilify, demonize, or engage in other reprisals against our witnesses and people who are telling the truth from their perspective.”
- 226
“Yes. There were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally administratively attacked, and it actually makes me very upset as a leader to see that happen to other co-workers and actually superiors of mine over the last 3 years.”
- 227
“How do you account for that response? That seems like a bizarre response.”
- 228
“There were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally administratively attacked, and it actually makes me very upset as a leader to see that happen to other co-workers and actually superiors of mine over the last 3 years.”
- 229
“I call it administrative terrorism. That is their quiver—their tool in the toolbox to silence people, especially, you know, career government service cares about their career, cares about their clearance, their reputation to climb the ladder, and when you threaten that flow—career path—a lot of people back off.”
- 230
“But I am here to represent those people.”
- 231
“Actually, I have been treated very well and the six people that were involved, myself included, all of them have or will be retiring from the military as 05s, 06s, and all my friends that are very senior, three and four stars, I have talked to them. They believe. They understand there is a problem. But no, I was actually treated really well.”
- 232
“Well, I will say, you know, I am not like a UFO fanatic. It is not me. But I will tell you that what we saw with four sets of eyes over a 5-minute period still—there is nothing—we have nothing close to it. It was amazing to see. I told my buddy, I wanted to fly it. But that is—just an incredible technology.”
- 233
“Yes, personally. Yes.”
- 234
“I just want everyone to note that he is coming forward in fear of his life to put in perspective if they were really not scared about this information coming out why would someone be intimidated like that.”
- 235
“I do not have data on that. I am not sure.”
- 236
“Not that particular evidence that you just espoused.”
- 237
“Yes. Him and I had a classified conversation in April 2022 before he took over AARO in July 2022 and I provided him some concerns I had.”
- 238
“Were the items that you divulged to him pertinent to national security?”
- 239
“Unfortunately, I cannot read his mind. I wish he did. I was happy to give sage counsel to him on where to look when he took the helm of AARO.”
- 240
“Correct, through DODSR—DoD Prepublication and Security Review—and I just want to remind the public they are just looking from a security perspective. These are my own personal views and opinions, not the Department's.”
- 241
“I am required by law to do that as a former intelligence officer, or I go to jail for revealing classified information.”
- 242
“Certainly. In the 2003 timeframe, a large group of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch facilities at Vandenberg Air Force Base when they observed a very large 100-yard sighted red square approach the base from the ocean and hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities. This object remained for about 45 seconds or so before darting off over the mountains.”
- 243
“There was a similar event within 24 hours, later in the evening. This was a morning event, I believe 8:45 in the morning. Later in the evening, post sunset, there were reports of other sightings on base including some aggressive behaviors.”
- 244
“These objects were approaching some of the security guards at rapid speeds before darting off, and this is information that was received through one of the witnesses that have approached me at Americans for Safe Aerospace.”
- 245
“Yes. They had official documentation and records from the event that the witness held over the years.”
- 246
“I have not seen what they have described. This object was estimated to be almost the size of a football field and I have not seen anything personally that large.”
- 247
“Certainly. There was some uncertainty or, you know, instability with the object. It seemed to rock a bit, and that is the last I had seen of the video. Much of the data that I would recommend be analyzed would consist of radar data that would provide precise kinematics on the object as well as the fleet of objects that were operating nearby.”
- 248
“I have been made privy to conversations with commercial aviators who have received cease and desist orders.”
- 249
“It appears so.”
- 250
“To your knowledge, are NHIs working with adversarial foreign governments in either technology exchange programs or back engineering programs?”
- 251
“On the 19th of April, Dr. Kirkpatrick, head of AARO, had said that he did not find any evidence of UAPs. You also stated that you had—in your interview that you briefed him on information that you were uncovering but that he did not followup with you. Were the items that you divulged to him pertinent to national security?”
- 252
“So, the American public should know that corporations are putting their own reputations on the—not the line but ahead of the safety of the American people, and I think would you agree with that statement?”
- 253
“Gentlemen, let us talk about the laws of physics for a second. Mr. Graves and Commander Fravor, I heard you talk about speed. When those objects broke the sound barrier, did they make a sonic boom?”
- 254
“the objects that we were seeing they were spherical, and they were observed up to Mach 2, which is a very nonaerodynamic shape”
- 255
“I was in a jet. You cannot hear anything. It is kind of loud in there.”
- 256
“When those objects broke the sound barrier, did they make a sonic boom?”
- 257
“No, not for the acceleration rates that we observed.”
- 258
“So, we got within a half mile of the Tic Tac, which people say that is pretty far, but in airplanes that is actually relatively close. No, it was perfectly white, smooth, no windows, although when we did take the original FLIR video that is out there when you put it on a big screen it actually had two little objects that came out of the bottom of it. But other than that, no windows, no seams, no nothing.”
- 259
“Yes. I personally interviewed those individuals.”
- 260
“Mr. Grusch, as a result of your previous government work have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself about ATs—advanced technologies—that the U.S. Government has?”
- 261
“Based on conventional advanced tech I was briefed to the preponderance of the Defense Department's both space and aerospace compartmented programs. Yes.”
- 262
“Do you have knowledge, or do you have reason to believe, that there are programs in the advanced tech space that are unsanctioned?”
- 263
“Yes, I do.”
- 264
“OK. And when you say that they are above congressional oversight what do you mean?”
- 265
“A complicated question. So, there is, you know, some—I would call it abuse here. So, congressional oversight of conventional Special Access Programs—and I will use Title 10, DoD as an example, right. So, 10 U.S. Code Section 119 discusses congressional oversight of SAPs, discusses the DEP/SecDef's ability to waive congressional reporting. However, the Gang of 8 is at least supposed to be notified if a—you know, a waived or a waive bigoted unacknowledged SAP is created and that is public law.”
- 266
“Well, so then how does—I mean, I do not want to cut you off, but how does a program like that get funded?”
- 267
“I will give you generalities. I can get very specific in a closed session. But misappropriation of funds and self-fund.”
- 268
“Does that mean that there is money in the budget that is set to go to a program, but it does not, and it goes to something else?”
- 269
“Yes. I have specific knowledge of that. Yes.”
- 270
“Do you think U.S. corporations are overcharging for certain tech they are selling to the U.S. Government and that additional money is going to programs?”
- 271
“Correct, through something called IR&D.”
- 272
“OK. Satellite imagery—let us talk about satellite imagery. We have satellites all over the place, some that we are aware of and many that we are not aware of, right. We are taking pictures of everything at every point and second. Mr. Grusch, are you aware—do you have direct knowledge, or have you talked to people with direct knowledge, that there are satellite imagery of these events?”
- 273
“That was one of my primary tasks at NGA since we process, exploit, and disseminate that kind of information. I have seen multiple cases, some of which to my understanding—and, of course, I left NGA in April so that is my information cutoff date. But I personally review both what we call overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that were—I could not even explain prosaically, and I have a degree in physics, by the way, as well. And I had—I am aware that you guys have not seen these reports, unfortunately and I do not know why.”
- 274
“Do you have direct knowledge, or have you spoken to people with direct knowledge, that this imagery applies to crash sites—crash imagery?”
- 275
“I cannot discuss that in an open session.”
- 276
“Do you have any information that the U.S. Government is involved in a disinformation campaign to deny the existence of certain UAPs?”
- 277
“I cannot go beyond what I have already stated publicly in my News Nation interview because it touches other sensitivities.”
- 278
“Mr. Grusch, in your sworn testimony you state that the U.S. Government has retrieved supposedly extraterrestrial spacecraft and other UAP-related artifacts. You go so far as to state that the U.S. is in possession of, quote, ''nonhuman spacecraft,'' end quote, and that some of these artifacts have circulated with defense contractors.”
- 279
“However, Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, the Director of AARO, previously testified before Congress that there has been, and I quote, ''no credible evidence thus far of extraterrestrial activity'' or of, quote, ''off-world technology brought to the attention of the office.'' To your knowledge, is that statement correct?”
- 280
“It is not accurate. I believe Dr. Kirkpatrick mentioned he had about 30 individuals that have come to AARO thus far. A few of those individuals have also come to AARO that I also interviewed.”
- 281
“And I know what they provided Dr. Kirkpatrick and their team.”
- 282
“I was able to evaluate that information.”
- 283
“What about G forces? Let us talk about G forces of those vehicles. Could a human survive those G forces with known technology today?”
- 284
“What about what they looked like? How close did you get? Did you see a seam or a rivet or a section? And what I mean is, obviously, the jets you are flying have all those things. Did these objects have those?”
- 285
“I did not have the detail to be able to tell that.”
- 286
“I have a degree in physics, by the way, as well.”
- 287
“Has the U.S. Government become aware of actual evidence of extraterrestrial or otherwise unexplained forms of intelligence and, if so, when do you think this first occurred?”
- 288
“I like to use the term nonhuman. I do not like to denote origin. Keeps the aperture open both scientifically. Certainly, like I have discussed publicly, previously 1930's.”
- 289
“Can you give me the names and titles of the people with direct firsthand knowledge and access to some of this crash retrieval—some of these crash retrieval programs and maybe which facilities, military bases, that would—the recovered material would be in?”
- 290
“I cannot discuss that publicly, but I did provide that information both to the intel committees and the Inspector General.”
- 291
“And we could get that in the SCIF if we were allowed to get in a SCIF with you? Would that be probably what you would think?”
- 292
“Sure, if you had the appropriate accesses. Yes.”
- 293
“What Special Access Programs cover this information and how is it possible that they have evaded oversight for so long?”
- 294
“I do know the names. Once again, I cannot discuss that publicly in how they have evaded oversight. In a closed setting, I can tell you the specific tradecraft used.”
- 295
“All right. When do you think those programs began and who authorized them?”
- 296
“I do know a lot of that information, but that is something I can discuss publicly because of sensitivities.”
- 297
“What level of security clearance is required to fully access these programs?”
- 298
“And I say that because myself, Representative Gaetz and Representative Luna were basically turned away at one point at Eglin.”
- 299
“Certainly, a difference between Member access and, say, somebody like me, but anybody who has a, you know, TS/SCI clearance and meets the eligibility criteria. The access adjudicative authority should be able to grant you access.”
- 300
“So, just to be—put a fine point on that there is nothing that you are aware of that is above Special Access Program classification?”
- 301
“It is a misnomer that there is anything actually above top secret. Executive Order 13526 delineates the classification levels.”
- 302
“Right. But I draw upon that because we can have access to those programs and so the notion that we are not being given that access sort of defies our typical muscle memory here in Congress.”
- 303
“Along those lines, Title 10—you may not know this or not, but Title 10 and Title 50 authorization they seem to say they are inefficient. So, who gets to decide this, in your opinion, in the past?”
- 304
“It is a group of career senior executive officials.”
- 305
“OK. Are they government officials?”
- 306
“Both in and out.”
- 307
“Be what?”
- 308
“Both in and out of government and that is about as far as I can go there.”
- 309
“I got you. All right. Well, that leads to my next question. Which private corporations are directly involved in this program? How much taxpayer money has been invested in these programs, to your knowledge?”
- 310
“I mean, we know—we audit the Pentagon every year and I have been here 5 years and they fail the daggum thing every year. Lose over a billion dollars a year, we think, and I was told the Department of Defense maybe 60 percent of their assets are unaccounted for, whatever the heck that means.”
- 311
“In the public sector, you go to jail for that kind of crap. So, tell me.”
- 312
“Yes. I know when I am a dollar off on my DTS travel voucher I get hammered, but seems like it does not work the other way, right.”
- 313
“If you sell over—if you sell over $600 worth of stuff on Ebay now you get a call from the IRS. So, please, what corporations?”
- 314
“Yes. I do not know the specific metrics toward the end of your question. The specific corporations I did provide to the committees in specific divisions and I spent 11‡ hours with both intel committees.”
- 315
“OK. Has there been any—has there been an active U.S. Government disinformation campaign to deny the existence of unidentified aerial phenomena and, if so, why?”
- 316
“I cannot go beyond what I have already espoused publicly about that.”
- 317
“OK. I have been told to ask you what that is and how to get it in the record.”
- 318
“What you stated publicly in your interviews for the congressional Record.”
- 319
“If you reference my News Nation interview and I talked about a multi-decade, you know, campaign to disenfranchise public interest, basically.”
- 320
“Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for coming here today. I do concur with the Ranking Member as well as several other Members here on this Committee that this is a committee for whistleblowers and for the protection of whistleblowers as well. So, we understand what you are putting on the table here and what you are putting on the line here. We thank you for that.”
- 321
“Mr. Grusch, you sat on the unidentified anomalous phenomenon task force created in the 2020 NDAA, correct?”
- 322
“Mr. Graves, you mentioned specifically during the answer to one of your questions, you named Boeing contractors being engaged in an incident regarding this red cube about a football field wide.”
- 323
“I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the interaction—or Mr. Grusch, either of you—the interactions between defense contractor companies and any UAP-related programs or activities.”
- 324
“So, I will just say that the information about the contractors themselves were provided by a witness and I have no particular detail in that relationship.”
- 325
“The kind of general unclassed wave tops. Certainly, the contractors, you know, or the metal benders, so to speak, the ones actually doing specific performance on government contracts.”
- 326
“Are they required to issue any disclosure regarding UAP sightings or do they engage in any reporting around this?”
- 327
“In terms of the contractors? Not that I am aware of.”
- 328
“They do not. OK. Now, when it comes to notification that you had mentioned about IR&D programs, we have seen defense contractors abuse their contracts before through this Committee. I have seen it personally, and I have also seen the notification requirements to Congress abused.”
- 329
“I am wondering, one of the loopholes that we see in the law is that there is—at least from my vantage point, is that depending on what we are seeing is that there are no actual definitions or requirements for notification.”
- 330
“Are there—what methods of notification did you observe? Like, when they say they notified Congress, how did they do that? Do you have insight into that?”
- 331
“I have seen it personally, and I have also seen the notification requirements to Congress abused.”
- 332
“For certain IR&D activities, I can only think of ones conventional in nature. Sometimes they flow through certain, I will just say SAP programs, that have cognizant authority over the Air Force or something and those are congressionally reported compartments.”
- 333
“IR&D is literally internal to the contractors. So, as long as it is money, either profits, private investment, et cetera, they do whatever they want.”
- 334
“A lot of it comes through what they call the PPR—Periodic Program Review process—if it is, you know, a SAP or controlled access program equity, and then those go to the specific committees, whether it be the SASC, HASC——”
- 335
“Correct.”
- 336
“Certainly. I think that there is two categories that would be important. One would be kinematics and understanding the specifics of how the vehicle or objects are moving, and the second would be a more zoomed out approach of being able to look at origin and destination after or before the incident as well as getting a better contextual understanding of how these objects are interacting with each other.”
- 337
“I would be happy to give you that in a closed environment. I can tell you specifically.”
- 338
“I would say and I have told people that you have to know where to look. They are not going to divulge it to you because of the classification levels. But if you know where to look and who to talk to, which is exactly where Mr. Grusch can point you then you have them.”
- 339
“I was an operator, so I was depending on folks like Mr. Grusch to do that homework.”
- 340
“I am going to get to that in a second. But last week White House NSC spokesman, John Kirby, stated that UAPs are having an impact on our training ranges and needs to be treated as a legitimate issue. Do you concur with his statements?”
- 341
“In 1997, we had the famous Phoenix Lights case. I do not know if any of you are familiar with that. There were two things that went along with that and the explanation was military training range off Luke and the Barry Goldwater range.”
- 342
“Only what is in the public vernacular about it. That was outside the scope of my duties.”
- 343
“I could potentially give you a vector on that. That specific case I am not—I mean, I am familiar with it in terms of public, but I can give you a vector in a closed environment. Yes.”
- 344
“Some of the initial procedures have been implemented such as within the United States Navy that have a Range Fouler Report that gathers information from pilots. I understand that a service-wide reporting mechanism is still pending.”
- 345
“However, that would be a great next step not only for gathering information but for showing the troops that is an acceptable topic and reducing the stigma.”
- 346
“Yes. As a recipient of a lot of those training range reports sometimes we only get contextual, kind of oral reporting. It would be nice if they attached all sensor data and there is a system in place that can handle multiple classifications of data, and that is an issue with the F–35, right. That jet was never built to be an ISR platform, and it is a pain in the butt to get that data off.”
- 347
“Yes, I would agree with the previous two, being a user of those training ranges, that the data has to be out there. You have to acknowledge that you are seeing them and then you have to collect the data. Right now, you get the report. Someone says, I saw something, but no one collects the radar data to back it up and do research.”
- 348
“I will say yes to that.”
- 349
“Do you believe that the 2019 classification guidelines for UAPs interferes with the Federal Government's ability to be transparent with the American people and do you think we need to be more transparent with the American people?”
- 350
“Yes, I am familiar with the UAP Task Force 2019 Security Classification guide. I think it is fair. I did actually help author that with the Director.”
- 351
“Uh-oh. You got a bias then.”
- 352
“Yes. I will say—I will call it a lazy attitude about declassifying videos. I mean, I have seen some of the videos of, you know, the recent shoot down and I saw no reason that could not have been released as long as they mask, you know, some data. The American people deserve to see that imagery and full motion video.”
- 353
“I would think—well, in my opinion, I will say things are over-classified. I know for a fact the video or the pictures that came out in the—I think it was the 2020 report, that had the stuff off the East Coast that were taken with an iPhone off the East Coast. A buddy of mine was one of the senior people there and he said they originally classified it TS/SCI, and my question then was what is TS/SCI about these? They are an iPhone literally off the vacapes. That is not TS/SCI.”
- 354
“So, they are over classified, and as soon as they do that they go in a vault and then you all have to look for them.”
- 355
“So, with the over-classification that may be one way. Are there other ways that the DoD or intelligence agencies are keeping this information from the American people or even from Congress?”
- 356
“I think part of that has been not encouraging reporting, if the problem is not something that can be measured, if it is not something that is going to be fixed.”
- 357
“Look, I have been here for 6 months and I am pretty skeptical. I do not trust anything in this town and so—and I think that is because I am from Missouri. You have got to show me, right.”
- 358
“So, at one point you had said that there has been harmful activity or aggressive activity. Has any of the activity been aggressive, been hostile, in your reports?”
- 359
“I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got physically injured and the activity——”
- 360
“By UAPs or by people within the Federal Government?”
- 361
“Both.”
- 362
“So, there has been activity by alien or nonhuman technology and/or beings that has caused harm to humans?”
- 363
“I cannot get into the specifics in an open environment, but at least the activity that I personally witnessed—and I have to be very careful here because you do not—you know, they tell you never to acknowledge tradecraft, right. So, what I personally witnessed, myself and my wife, was very disturbing.”
- 364
“You have said that U.S. has intact spacecraft. You said that the government has alien bodies or alien species. Have you seen—have you seen the spacecraft?”
- 365
“I have to be careful to describe what I have seen firsthand and not in this environment. But I could answer that question behind closed doors.”
- 366
“Have you seen any of the bodies?”
- 367
“That is something I have not witnessed myself.”
- 368
“And so with that being said, you know, the other statement that has been made that was intriguing to me because—and it is intriguing because my view has been that we are billions of light years away from any other system and the concept that an alien species that is technologically advanced enough to travel billions of light years gets here and somehow is incompetent enough to not survive Earth or crashes is something that I find a little bit farfetched. And that with that being said, you have mentioned that there is interdimensional potential. Could you expound on that?”
- 369
“To answer your first question and, you know, I am here as a fact witness and not an expert, but I will give you a theoretical framework at least to work off to kind of espouse crashes. Regardless of, you know, your level of sentience, right—you know, planes crash, cars crash, and a number of sorties, however high, a small percentage are going to end in, you know, mission failure, if you will, as we say in the Air Force.”
- 370
“And then in terms of multidimensionality, that kind of thing, the framework that I am familiar with, for example, is something called the holographic principle both—it derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics and that is if you want to imagine a 3D object such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2D surface that is the holographic principle. So, you can be projected—quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional. It is a scientific trope that you can actually cross, literally, as far as I understand, but there is probably guys with Ph.Ds. that we could probably argue about that.”
- 371
“But you have not seen any documentation that that is what is occurring? It is a theory?”
- 372
“Only theoretical framework discussion.”
- 373
“OK. OK. Occam's Razor is that this—these aircrafts have they been identified that they are being produced by domestic, you know, military contractors? Is there any evidence that that is what is being recovered?”
- 374
“Not to my knowledge. Plus, the recoveries predate a lot of our advanced programs that I previously am waiving off. So——”
- 375
“So, would it be safe to say that there could be a scenario today where you have an aircraft that crashes because it has been involved in one program from one Federal agency and the—but the agency that retrieves it is not aware of that program and to them it appears alien in origin?”
- 376
“You are not aware—it has not happened that you are aware of?”
- 377
“That I am aware of.”
- 378
“it has been involved in one program from one Federal agency and the—but the agency that retrieves it is not aware of that program and to them it appears alien in origin?”
- 379
“I mean, that is a hypothetical situation. I am not aware of any historical situation that would match that that you described.”
- 380
“Several months ago my office received a protected disclosure from Eglin Air Force Base indicating that there was a UAP incident that required my attention.”
- 381
“I sought a briefing regarding that episode and brought with me Congressman Burchett and Congresswoman Luna. We asked to see any of the evidence that had been taken by flight crew in this endeavor and to observe any radar signature as long as—as well as to meet with the flight crew.”
- 382
“We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew and initially we were not afforded access to images and to radar.”
- 383
“Thereafter, we had a bit of a discussion about how authorities flow in the United States of America and we did see the image and we did meet with one member of the flight crew who took the image.”
- 384
“The image was of something that I am not able to attach to any human capability either from the United States or from any of our adversaries and I am somewhat informed on the matter having served on the Armed Services Committee for 7 years, having served on the committee that oversees DARPA and advanced technologies for several years.”
- 385
“They were out on a test mission that day over the Gulf of Mexico and when you are on a test mission you are supposed to have clear airspace. Not supposed to be anything that shows up.”
- 386
“And they saw a sequence of four craft in a clear diamond formation for which there is a radar sequence that I and I alone have observed in the U.S. Congress.”
- 387
“One of the pilots goes to check out that diamond formation and sees a large floating, what I can only describe as an orb, again, like I said, not of any human capability that I am—that I am aware of.”
- 388
“And when he approached he said that his radar went down. He said that his FLIR system malfunctioned and that he had to manually take this image from one of the lenses and it was not automated in collection as you would typically see in a test mission.”
- 389
“How should we think about the fact that this craft that was approached by our pilot had the capability of disarming a number of the sensor and collection systems on that craft?”
- 390
“I think this goes to that national security side. You can go back through history of things showing up in certain areas and disabling our capabilities, which is disheartening, and for us, I mean, like I said, it completely disabled the radar on the aircraft when they tried to do it and the only way we could see it is passively, which is how he got that image.”
- 391
“So, I think that is a concern on what are these doing, not only how do they operate but their capabilities inside to do things like this.”
- 392
“And how should we think about four craft moving in a very clear formation equidistant from one another in a diamond? In all of the phenomenon, perhaps, Mr. Graves, that you have analyzed have we ever seen multiple craft in a single formation?”
- 393
“I have one particular case and that was during the Gimbal incident. The recording on the AT FLIR system shows a single object that rotates. You hear the pilots refer to a fleet of objects that is not visible on the FLIR system and that was something that I witnessed during the debrief as part of the radar data on the situational awareness page.”
- 394
“I would like to add, however, Congressman, there is a small bit of anger, I would say, I would feel if those pilots are still facing that difficulty in reporting this topic and they do not have the tools to be able to mitigate this issue. It just goes to show how serious this is and why this is such an important issue for our pilots and for our Nation.”
- 395
“It was stated explicitly to me by these test pilots that if you have a UAP experience the best thing you can do for your career is forget it and not tell anyone because any type of reporting, either above the surface or below the surface, does have a perceived consequence to these people and that is a culture we must change if we want to get to the truth.”
- 396
“Mr. Chairman, I would observe that perhaps as we move forward from this hearing there are some obvious next steps. Every person watching this knows that we need to meet with Mr. Grusch in a secure compartmentalized facility so that we can get fulsome answers that do not put him in jeopardy and that give us the information we need.”
- 397
“Second, I would suggest that the radar images that were collected of this formation of craft out of Eglin Air Force Base and specifically the actual image taken by the actual flight crew that we can actually validate be provided to the Committee, subpoenaed if necessary, so that we are able to track how to get this type of reporting and analysis done in a more fulsome way.”
- 398
“Earlier this year a Chinese spy balloon was shot down off the coast of my home state of South Carolina. Since the Roswell incident in 1947, many American have wondered about the dangers of unknown objects crisscrossing our skies.”
- 399
“Whether these are UAPs or weather phenomena, advanced technology from American allied or enemy forces, or something more out of this world.”
- 400
“The first one, when you reported your experiences with a UAP did any of you face any repercussions with your superiors? Yes or no.”
- 401
“I have actually never seen anything personally, believe it or not.”
- 402
“And then do you believe there is an active disinformation campaign within our government to deny the existence of UAPs? Yes or no.”
- 403
“I do not have an answer to that.”
- 404
“As previously stated publicly, yes.”
- 405
“Previously with, like, Project Bluebook, yes, but currently I do not speak for the U.S. Government.”
- 406
“I have a few questions for Mr. Graves. What percentage of UAP sightings, in your belief, go unreported by our pilots?”
- 407
“This is an approximation based off of my personal experience speaking with a number of pilots, but I would estimate we are somewhere near 5 percent reporting, perhaps.”
- 408
“So, like, 95 percent basically do not report seeing UAPs?”
- 409
“That is just my personal estimate.”
- 410
“In the incident off Virginia Beach, do you believe the Navy took the danger to your aircraft seriously after it was reported?”
- 411
“A few questions for Mr. Fravor. As an expert naval aviator have you ever seen an object that looked and moved like the Tic Tac UAP?”
- 412
“Did the Tic Tac UAP move in such a way that defied the laws of physics?”
- 413
“Absolutely.”
- 414
“The way we understand them, yes.”
- 415
“No. We have test ranges for that.”
- 416
“No. I just think it was ignored when it happened, and it just sat somewhere in a file. Never got reported.”
- 417You followed a link to this statement
“I can only speak for my personal leadership over at NGA. I tried to look at every report that came through that I could triage.”
- Claim type
- Factual Assertion
- Certainty
- Certain
- Tone
- Cooperative
- Specificity
- 0.60
- 418
“There are certain elected leaders that had more information that—I am not sure what they have shared with certain Gang of 8 members or et cetera. But, certainly, I would not be surprised.”
- 419
“It is something I cannot discuss in a public setting.”
- 420
“As I have stated publicly already in my News Nation interview, biologics came with some of these recoveries. Yes.”
- 421
“Nonhuman, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program.”
- 422
“The specific documentation I would have to talk to you in a SCIF about.”
- 423
“I can give you a specific cooperative and hostile witness list of specific individuals that were in those.”
- 424
“Yes. I was an enlisted Marine, Naval Academy graduate, Navy, flew for 18 years. Got a Master's from University of Houston and I have worked in the private sector for the last what now, 19—16 years, 17 years. I do a lot of defense work.”
- 425
“Yes. We were at a work up with all the battle groups. So, we integrate the ships with the carrier, the airwing with the carrier, and we start working. So, we were doing an air to air defense to hone not only our skills but those of the USS Princeton when they had been tracking them for 2 weeks. The problem was that there was never manned aircraft airborne when they were tracking them and this was the first day and, unfortunately, we were the ones airborne and went and saw it.”
- 426
“It was actually—if you are familiar San Diego, it was a perfect day, light winds, no whitecaps, clear skies. Not a cloud. It was—for flying it was the best.”
- 427
“That is correct. For some people that cannot—know what a Tic Tac is it is a giant flying propane tank.”
- 428
“The Princeton tracked it. The Nimitz tracked it. The E2 tracked it. We never saw it on our radars. Our fire control radars never picked it up. The other airplane that took the video did get it on a radar. As soon as it tried to lock it, it jammed the radar, spit the lock and he rapidly switched over to the targeting pod, which you can do in the F–18.”
- 429
“No, there is none. There is no IR plume coming out and Chad, who took the video, went through all the EO, which is black and white TV and the I&R modes and there is no visual signs of propulsion. It is just sitting in space at 20,000 feet.”
- 430
“Abruptly, very determinant. It knew exactly what it was doing. It was aware of our presence and it had acceleration rates—I mean, it went from zero to matching our speed in no time at all.”
- 431
“No, not even close.”
- 432
“No wings.”
- 433
“No, and never felt threatened at all.”
- 434
“I would say no, just on the performance. It would have just left in a split second.”
- 435
“No. I actually said—like I said earlier, I think it defies current material science and the ability to develop that much propulsion and I know there has been some physicists that have done calculations, which is beyond anything that we have.”
- 436
“No. You know, it has been said it is probably the most credible UFO sighting in history, based on all the sensors that were tracking it and then for us to get visual. And to go against the naysayers that it is something on the screen or whatever, I mean, there is four sets of human eyeballs. We are all very credible. Of the six of us that were involved in the thing, including the video, every one of us is going to do 20-plus years in the military in very responsible positions. I would say the world needs to know that. It is not a joke.”
- 437
“Fair assessment.”
- 438
“It is very possible.”
- 439
“Definitely.”
- 440
“Possible.”
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